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Mary & Elizabeth Discuss the Book
Discussion Transcript
Welcome to the Enchanted Garden Book Club, our quarterly fairy tale retelling book club, and this month we’re discussing Echo North by Joanna Ruth Meyer. This is probably going to be backwards for you, but there you go.
Elizabeth:
Hey! Matching library copies!
Mary:
Yeah! I’m Mary.
Elizabeth:
And I’m Elizabeth.
Mary:
Alright, shall we go right into our questions?
Elizabeth:
Let’s do.
Mary:
Let’s. Alright:
In what ways is the retelling similar to the original?
Now, this one gets slightly complicated because we’re not just dealing with a single original fairy tale; we are dealing with a collection of fairy tales that are all on a theme together. That kind of ‘my beau has turned into a monster for many different reasons’ fairy tale trope. So, we have “Beauty and the Beast,” kind of a- the “Cupid and Psyche” story idea, “Tam Lin,” and “East of the Sun, West of the Moon” all smooshed in together. And it very much, I think, the- Meyer does an excellent job keeping enough elements of each of those tales that if I had only read one of the tales I would still be able to find that tale in there.
Mary:
I agree.
Elizabeth:
You have to wait a very long time to get “Tam Lin,” but by the end of the book, “Tam Lin” is in there. You can see the “Beauty and the Beast” elements right away. And “East of the Sun, West of the Moon” is for sure in there, too. I feel like I should get more specific, but it’s such a broad question given the number of tales involved, um- So, I defer to you.
Mary:
Well, obviously, it did have the basic concept the youngest daughter being sent to live with the beast
Elizabeth:
Mhm
Mary:
There was an enchanted dwelling, which is present in both- two of the tales, and a cursed prince or, you know, man, which was in all three.
Elizabeth:
Mhm
Mary:
I feel like the beginning was where we saw the most “Beauty and the Beast” elements, the middle was mostly “East of the Sun, West of the Moon,” and then, of course, the ending from “Tam Lin.”
Elizabeth:
I agree
Mary:
They definitely seemed to wrap them all
Elizabeth:
Yeah, it feels like the- we’re taken through the stories kind of one at a time. It opens very “Beauty and the Beast” and ends very “Tam Lin” with a beautiful little bridge of “East of the Sun, West of the Moon”. And in case anyone’s not super familiar, or in case you are and you’re curious how Echo North fits with “East of the Sun, West of the Moon”, um, or “Tam Lin” because they’re a little bit less familiar than “Beauty and the Beast”, uh, the “East of the Sun, West of the Moon” bit that it primarily present is ‘woman must go live with enchanted prince she doesn’t know is an enchanted prince–she thinks it’s just a beast (in this case a wolf; in the original tale usually a white bear instead. so, white wolf, white bear, you know- magical beast), and she’s told ‘you cannot look at this beast at night’. Like, they share a bed together every night in the dark and she’s told you cannot light a candle, you cannot light a light, you cannot look at him. and in the original tale, they’re married–she’s married to the animal–and they have sex at night and things. like, they’re married-married. she can’t look at him. So, I’m pretty sure she knows that he’s human at night
Mary:
Mhm
Elizabeth:
because they’re doing the deed. but she can’t look at him. And of course she sneaks a candle in and lights it and looks at him. and, again, in “East of the Sun, West of the Moon”, she sneaks a peek like in some stories, while they’re doing the deed. in others, like, while he’s asleep afterwards. like, tweaks. but, in Echo North, she does ultimately decide on the very last night of her year with the wolf to sneak that light in and sneak a peek, and that’s what actually sets off the curse and the enchanted prince beast gets whisked away by the evil figure that has enchanted him to begin with and set those requirements, so- um, he’s- and he’s going to be forced to be married to the evil, you know, woman that enchanted him instead and she has to go rescue her husband before he’s married off to the evil woman, etcetera. Um, it’s an interesting story. the- they’re very interesting. Like, the retelling’s the same either way and Echo North captures the essence of ‘you are not supposed to do this thing, but the only reason that the story can progress and that you ultimately are able to live with your love in his human form is because you broke the rule, but you’re also in trouble for breaking the rule’. like, don’t break the rule; you broke the rule, oh no; but actually you had to break the rule or it wouldn’t have been good anyway. like-
Mary:
yeah
Elizabeth:
that’s all in there and she captures that well and I- I did love that because “East of the Sun, West of the Moon” is one of my favorite fairy tales that is not super common, and so it was great to find a retelling that really captured that story. Um. And then “Tam Lin”, of course: hold on to that man while he’s turned into a bajillion different monsters, and if you hold on long enough then he’s free and you’ve saved him; that’s very much the end of the book, um, as Mary mentioned. Any other re- like- similarities that are worth noting, you think?
Mary:
Personally, I like that both had- there was a lot of the enchanted library feel or, you know, mirrors or windows–ways to- it’s like in Echo North she knew that there was another person that was a prince.
Elizabeth:
Mhm
Mary:
Whether, you know, she was able to make that connection of ‘this is the same person as the beast’ or not, like, as a reader, we were able to make that connection.
Elizabeth:
True. And it is interesting because I feel like the enchanted library that is in the House Under the Mountain is inspired by not so much the original fairy tale version of “Beauty and the Beast” but what often is thought of as your- the original experience with the tale a lot of us have now, with the kind of Disney movie big magical library, um, and you do have that magic mirror that lets her see her family. Only in this case all of the books are also magic mirrors. The mirror books were really interesting and at the same time unique while also feeling like wholly taken from these tales. Like, you have an enchanted library and you have enchanted mirrors, let’s just smoosh them together.
Mary:
Yeah
Elizabeth:
and it’s recognizable as elements of those original tales without being exactly the same.
Mary:
So one little thing that did, going back to that Disney version: at one point she finds like the ballroom with the yellow dress, and I immediately got that picture in my head of the original “Beauty of the Beast,” you know, with the ballroom scene
Elizabeth:
Yeah. You can picture- they even mention playing- her playing the piano and- and like teaching the wolf things and, uh, there is a scene, too, in the “Beauty and the Beast” Disney movie where she’s sitting and like playing the piano and they’re being all cozy and homey together
Mary:
Oh, that’s right
Elizabeth:
and I feel like a lot of those kind of snippets of scenes from the movie very much made their way into the book as like little Easter eggs to be like oh I see what you did there Joanna Ruth Meyer; I see what you did there. So, um, yeah. Fun- fun little details to recognize for sure scattered throughout the book.
Mary:
Let’s move on to the next one:
How are these two stories different?
whew
Mary:
Yeah- Other than the main one, where she combined three tales…
Elizabeth:
Exactly.
Mary:
That’s a big part.
Elizabeth:
Like, that’s- that’s a big bit. I did enjoy, um, most of these stories of “Beauty and the Beast,” if we look at kind of the beginning of the story– most “Beauty and the Beast” tellings, Beauty is the youngest of a series of daughters, and I did enjoy that she is still the youngest, but she has an older brother. Um, that kind of sibling dynamic is different for that reason, and I did appreciate that the brother kind of gets his own life and isn’t just this spoiled, demanding older sibling that wants actual things like treasures where she only wants a flower
Mary:
Yeah
Elizabeth:
Yeah, like, that’s not there at all. Instead it’s like ‘my brother’s a cool uh apprentice clock repairer maker and he made me a really cool watch compass, and he’s nice and living his own life’ and I felt like that- that was a nice little change. Um, and that is something that’s different from- I don’t think any of the original tales is like ‘and she has an older brother who’s just a nice guy.’ So, that-
Mary:
Yeah
Elizabeth:
-that was a difference, for sure. Uh, we already mentioned it’s a white wolf instead of the white bear, when you look at kind of “East of the Sun, West of the Moon,” and it’s one of those like similar but different: the wolf queen being the overall kind of enchantress behind everything captures that kind of fey fairy queen aspect that’s the “Tam Lin” enemy, the kind of like wicked enchantress slash I think in some tellings ogre princess from “East of the Sun, West of the Moon”
Mary:
Yeah, the trolls. Yeah
Elizabeth:
You know, the monstrous figure of that, and also the fairy that wants to penalize the spoiled rich boy from “Beauty and the Beast.” She’s fitting all of those roles while still being a completely unique character that Meyer has come up with in the form of that Wolf Queen. Um, she even managed to keep both the ‘there’s a single like fae queen that wants him’ element but also the ‘she’s an evil monstrous figure that wants to marry him to her monstrous daughter’ because she did go ahead and give the Wolf Queen a daughter to be present as well. So, that’s similar, but again the way it’s different is that it’s smooshing all these stories together and it is making those figures a lot more present from beginning through end of the story. um. Slipping the the Wolf Queen’s daughter in to the mirror books, for example, uh, so she’s actually a present figure, not just some-
Mary:
Yeah not just an at the end
Elizabeth:
off the page, imaginary foe that you have to go save your beau from. I think the- Yeah. The- It’s really the way the stories are combined is how she’s making the stories different from- this- different from the originals. There are obviously little snippets that are different, but it’s in the combination that I think the most interesting differences are.
Mary:
Yeah. One refreshing difference that we got right from the beginning was: Echo is not considered a beauty. She got scarred by the beast, and is considered, you know, kind of cursed and unwanted.
Elizabeth:
Yeah. And- and that’s something, I think, that’s interesting, is the way that we experience the story that we read in the part 1 of the book is very much um “Beauty and the Beast,” but she’s not a beauty–she’s considered like devil touched and has had this terrible childhood where people have really judged her in a very ableist disgusting way for the scars that she got from the wolf early on in her life, and we find out at the end with that twist that I’ll go ahead and spoiler-mention because this is all spoilers
Mary:
Yep
Elizabeth:
um we find out at the end that actually that first run-through of her original life was a lot more stereotypically “Beauty and the Beast.”
Mary:
Mhm
Elizabeth:
She was the, you know, musically talented, popular, beautiful, book reading belle from town who lives with this beast and falls in love with the beast and wears beautiful ball gowns and is all about, you know, like- she very much basically was that Disney beauty from “Beauty and the Beast” in that first iteration of her life, and the change that gave her, I guess, the- the little bit of difference to see through the rescue on her second try was that she was scarred and was dealing with the- the consequences of that on this second take. Life: take two. Um, so that was a- You’re right, that’s a very big difference.
Mary:
and just that whole do-over was- was an interesting twist
Elizabeth:
oh yeah
Mary:
Yeah
Elizabeth:
That was. Part of me up before the twist happened, I have to say, was like, ‘okay; I’m still waiting to find out about the first woman; we can’t have laid all of those clues in the House Under the Mountain and never come back to it; waiting’ and then it happened and I was like, oh, duh
Mary:
it’s like she was the first person
Elizabeth:
Yeah
Mary:
Yeah, everything-
Elizabeth:
I was like, how many times has this played out with how many women? Oh, it’s always just been her, but twice. Got it. That was a, um, anyway. And I did enjoy that the way that played out. I was like ‘please don’t be a plot hole. please don’t-‘ ‘Oh, you’re not a plot hole; you’re a twist.’ Gotcha. Okay.
Mary:
It probably worked best because that was something not in any of the other tales. Even if you’re familiar with everything, this throws you for a loop.
Elizabeth:
Yeah. The- the whole twist there is very much a big difference from any of the original tales.
Mary:
See, I came in familiar with the basics of “Tam Lin” and familiar with the obviously “Beauty and the Beast,” but I actually had not read or been familiar with “East of the Wind-” “East of the Sun, West of the Moon?”
Elizabeth:
Yeah
Mary:
there we go. So, that was a twist for me initially, when she saw him and then he was whisked away and then there’s a whole part 2 where it’s like, wait, she failed to save him. So, that was a twist for me, but, yeah, coming back after I read the story after, I’m like, okay, this is familiar; it happens. But yeah, the other one- whew.
Elizabeth:
yeah. It is interesting–kind of taking the- these first two questions for the discussion together–one nice thing that happens when combining fairy tales is if you’re familiar with one of the tales you get all of those elements of familiarity to track, but something that is actually really familiar from a tale can be a big surprise. I am familiar with all of these tales– “East of the Sun, West of the Moon” um has been one of my favorite kind of original tales and I- it’s also one that, if anyone has read Alice Hoffman’s uh Ice Queen novel very much takes inspiration from “East of the Sun, West to the Moon” too. um you would think it would be more “Snow Queen” inspired but no it’s “East of the Sun, West of the Moon” all the way, and um a very interesting take on it too so I do highly recommend that book. But, I spent the whole time in part one being like ‘okay, when is she gonna sneak a peek? is it gonna be the very last night? it’s gonna be the very last night of the year-‘ Like, I was ready and waiting for it, and I was more like ‘when’s she gonna figure out the wolf is human at night?’ Like, I knew from the very beginning because I knew the fairy tale, like, it would have been a very weird twist for me if Meyer was like ‘and she never peeked’ or ‘and he was a wolf at night, what’. I would have been shocked. Um. So, there’s different ways to kind of play with the anticipation and the expectations that you have from the stories, and I think overall Meyer went with the familiar choices, plot-wise, from each story, um, rather- so, none of the differences are like huge plot differences. Again, other than the big going back twist, um, that we discussed. And that’s a- a fun stylistic note, I think.
Mary:
Yeah. I also thought it was interesting with the um sneaking the peek and you know waking up: well, he’s whisked away, but we found out it was a no-win. If she had gone through that night and not looked, he would have been free and human, but the Wolf Queen would have taken her instead.
Elizabeth:
yeah, yeah. that’s-
Mary:
So, it’s like this really was the best outcome, was to see him, have him taken, and then free him.
Elizabeth:
Yeah. Again- Which is again like the- Even in the original “East of the Sun, West of the Moon,” she was either going to live with a bear and have sex with a human she can never see every night and just kind of that’s permanent that’s life, enjoy, or she was going to break the rule, go and save him, and have an actual happily ever after; and the actual happily ever after only comes from breaking that rule. um. But in both it’s very much the enchanted lover is like ‘oh my god! why did you look at me? this is awful. this is the end of the world.’ like ‘bad! bad job’, which is especially egregious in Echo North because, dude, Hal: you want Echo to be taken away? She didn’t agree to that. Like, and you want it twice? You did it the first time and the second time, that you weren’t like- like, why weren’t you- I understand you were enchanted, so you couldn’t warn her: why didn’t you secretly root for her to break the rules because you love her and you don’t want her to be whisked away by the Wolf Queen?
Mary:
Yeah
Elizabeth:
Why was your reaction ‘oh no! You only needed to make it one last night!’ and not like ‘thank goodness you looked at me! holy shit, the Wolf Queen almost got you and I love you and I don’t want that; this is my burden because I’m the one that made the deal’. Like-
Mary:
Well, that’s a good point. Yeah.
Elizabeth:
That is a criticism I have for Hal as a person. Bad. Bad wolf. Anyway. More on that later, probably, out of me. Yeah.
Mary:
Yeah. So, we’ll move on for now.
Did this retelling retain enough of the original to be satisfying?
I very much think so. I think each of the tales, which is impressive. Like, I felt like it felt like a satisfying “Beauty and the Beast” retelling, a satisfying “East of the Sun, West of the Moon” retelling, and a satisfying “Tam Lin” retelling, and to pull all three of those off without kind of just being like ‘eh, there were elements of this, but it wasn’t really retelling that story’
Mary:
Uh-huh
Elizabeth:
that- that was an impressive interweaving of plot, for sure.
Mary:
Yeah, you definitely got that ‘woman falls in love with beast and breaks him from a curse’, which is really the main basis, and it- did it well in that regards. So:
What did the retelling do better than the original?
Elizabeth:
yeah
Mary:
For part of that
Elizabeth:
it- it does. it fleshes out uh a lot of the kind of plot holes that inherently are part of fairy tales in their original form, that- we have a lot more explanation and story behind who is the enchanted dude and how does that enchantment work and why is this happening. um, that gets fleshed out a lot more. and we also get a kind of better sense of no- this is- I’m a little torn. I’m a little torn on this because I feel like um there are certain gaps that are filled in just partly because it is novel length and it’s putting all these tales together, but there are other kind of gaps that I feel like still exist that were missing in the original a little bit. Example: I get that Echo was able to get to know Hal both as wolf Hal and as mirror book human Hal, and then in the end as actual human unenchanted Hal, so that’s a lot of different ways to get to know someone and possibly fall in love with them and realize oh I love this version of you, so I probably love that version of you, too, but I still feel like uh I wanted more of a basis for a love that’s so strong that it’s an old magic that breaks any enchantment, especially when it’s very clear that twice he has effectively betrayed her, even if it’s just in his emotional reaction. Like, his will was taken away by this magic enchantment–he couldn’t tell her certain things and had to tell her other things–but emotionally that his reaction each time she peeked at him and he got whisked away by the Wolf Queen was ‘oh no, you almost made it, I almost made it, this is your fault’ like really rubbed me the wrong way and that’s a gap that was there in the original tale actually a little bit less. Original “East of the Sun, West of the Moon,” he’s just like ‘I wanted to live with you and this is the only way I could do it and now I have to go marry that other person that I don’t like’ and then the rescue of him is completely like ‘oh, that- my bad; shit, I ruined it; I’m gonna go save you; I broke the rules and I shouldn’t have’. This one very much is like: she should have broken the rules, what is the deal, Hal? Um, and I feel like that- that’s always a gap in an original fairy tale is why do they love each other so much, especially when their love is like magically powerful– how did they get to know each other and love each other? I just feel like I- the whole basis of the wolf loving Echo was probably there in their first lifetime together more so than this next one. I- I don’t- I didn’t feel that connection the way I really wanted to. I didn’t understand. I was like: I feel like you love mirror him because he’s literally the only option available and he’s kind of hot. He’s the only option available. Like-
Mary:
Yeah
Elizabeth:
and then I’ve, you know– it almo- it felt very Stockholm Syndrome to me, Echo’s feelings for Hal, in whatever form he took, and I feel like I want to see them as a couple deciding to be in love with each other or not outside of their trauma bond and then see how it goes, and I would have preferred if that was the case. Does that make any sense? Like
Mary:
Yeah. I think the ending it does at least imply that they are going to have to deal with the issues of the betrayal and, you know, the lies and everything, and that it’s not immediately everything’s all happily ever after, and now we have to adjust to being back after time’s gone, so it’s not immediately everything’s perfect, but at the same time it’s- You’re right, it doesn’t feel like there’s enough foundation.
Elizabeth:
Yeah. I feel like showing up already married when she’s like by the way I’m alive 11 years later to her dad and her brother is like- I would have preferred that they get to know each other instead of just being like- like- it felt like a whirlwind romance even though they lived together for a full year. You know? Like
Mary:
yeah
Elizabeth:
but again I think that’s not necessarily a fresh um and unusual for a fairy tale; it’s just something that ideally I would have liked to see addressed as a gap to be filled in because I think young adult romance novels, we have so many that tell the teens who read them ‘first love is the only love, yeah yeah! once you’re in love you just stick it out no matter what they do to you’ and I think that’s really toxic, and I would like to see a woman be like ‘Hal, look, I thought I loved you; I broke your enchantment; you’re free, go be you, do whatever you want, but also: dick move, bro. you’ve had over like hundreds and hundreds of years of experience to figure this out. Why don’t you go figure it out as a human? I’m gonna go be hot and single because I’m only 18, and-‘
Mary:
And apprentice at a university
Elizabeth:
Like, seriously!
Mary:
I know. Grow up an independent woman.
Elizabeth:
like, go to college, meet some hot college dudes. Like, I don’t know, Echo, you’re settling down too early. Um, and I feel like I want more- Like, my personal preference, I’m more and more finding myself thinking I really wish there were more young adult romance novels that showed, hey, that first love you fell into when you were still a teenager might end up being the love of your life, but probably isn’t, and you still have so much growth to do as individuals, you might want to try doing it single for a while; you might want to figure out who you are on your own as a single per- Like, I just feel like there’s so much that’s like ‘soulmate’ and ‘fated for each other’ that’s there in young adult romance, and that that honestly isn’t the message I feel like-
Mary:
Especially, it seems like, once you add in the fantasy
Elizabeth:
Exactly, yeah
Mary:
Yeah
Elizabeth:
And I feel like I’m tired of that message being the message that’s there for teens who want to just read a fantasy romance. So, I feel like I’m drifting away from the question a lot, but I feel like that’s- that’s a gap that’s there in any original fairy tale that is very much still there, and that I wish was filled in in a better way, if that makes any sense.
Mary:
Yeah. Um so that’s back to the question on what did it do better
Elizabeth:
yeah
Mary:
I really enjoyed it that she had something to do in her year at the house
Elizabeth:
she wasn’t just like making up tasks for herself and drifting
Mary:
because she actually got to care for the house and keep those rooms together and I feel like, coming back to what you said, it felt like there was a more of a relationship with the house than with the wolf.
Elizabeth:
for sure. Yeah.
Mary:
So, yeah.
Elizabeth:
The house was the real loss. Like learning all that binding, and she learned skills- she relearned apparently because she knew it in her first life, but she learned piano, and she read books about the real world and learned about composers and learned about folklore and tales from across time and around the world and- and like she- she had a very productive- she had a very productive year, which was really nice. um
Mary:
and learning to sew even came into play in her journey north
Elizabeth:
yeah
Mary:
It’s like, she actually used some of those skills
Elizabeth:
and I did appreciate that character growth that she learned to not be so self-conscious about her scars to just say you know what people have treated me badly for them but that’s on them and I can still be comfortable with who I am and view them as a reflection of my experience and not feel like I have to hide my face and be ashamed of them and I think like the way that she’s just kind of traveling and telling her story and doing her thing at the end was a really nice like character progress for her. She was scared to even try to go to college because of her scars, but now she’s just gonna like cross the entire planet to go to the far far north all alone, scarred face and all, and she’s- she- you know, I feel like she’s figuring out how to be an adult in that way, even if it is for a very uh childish romantic feeling, ultimately. Like, she has some lovely character growth.
Mary:
And then–kind of touched on this:
What gaps did the retelling fill in that were missing in the original?
I feel like, as you kind of mentioned, the uh actually doing something while you’re in that enchanted lifespan is a nice, could be considered a gap. I feel like um fleshing out some of the details of the journey. She’s- it still skips quite a bit, but I think adding in the interaction with the North Wind who’s been you know turned human and doesn’t have most of his powers and- and having that kind of guide moment helps explain how- how would she get to the far north. Although the winds do make appearances in tales, I feel like the specific way the winds are used to facilitate the whole story was a nice filling-in. Even just the explanation for how is this Wolf Queen a figure who has all this power– like that she has a backstory and an explanation and there are rules to the magics involved for the winds, for the Wolf Queen, for everyone doing anything here; that there’s guidelines and what takes the Wolf Queen down ultimately is that she tries to break the rules of magic and that’s not acceptable. I feel like that’s very fairy tale, but also explicitly explaining that and laying out how that works was filling in a gap. That it’s just kind of an assumption; no one ever bothers to say where do these magical figures come from in fairy tales, um, how do they interplay with each other, so it was nice to get a how are these figures interplaying why didn’t the winds do more earlier if they’re good people like what’s- kind of- you have to wait till the Wolf Queen breaks the rules and then you get to get rid of her is a nice uh in very fairy tale explanation that still wasn’t there in the original tales.
Mary:
I guess this would actually probably fall more better in the previous question, but I really liked the ending with the “Tam Lin” element, holding on to the changing beast, was so much better than the version I read for the “East-“: washing a shirt.
Elizabeth:
Oh, god, yeah
Mary:
Like, a trolless would not be able to wash it clean and it gets dirtier; it must be a Christian-based person to magically wash this shirt clean
Elizabeth:
the way that she- yeah, having the “Tam Lin” end to “East of the Sun, West of the Moon” is definitely an improvement over the original way that that is resolved. Oh, for sure. Just…the laundry. Ah. The Christian laundry…
Mary:
Yes: Christian laundry
Elizabeth:
Yeah. That is a very good point. Oh my god. I feel like I black that part of “East of the Sun, West of the Moon” out of my mind because it’s so ridiculous.
Mary:
Yeah, I just read it this morning, so it was all fresh in my mind. I’m like, what?
Elizabeth:
yeah. oh. yeah, that’s definitely something like- the “Tam Lin” trial is a much better ending, for sure.
Mary:
So:
Are there any other things you want to touch on?
um. I had one moment where I- I had a pet peeve pop up, uh, that pops up in lots of books for me, and I was disappointed in the part two of this when Echo is heading off with her guide to go to the far north to- they specifically say they’re gathering supplies and that they might be gone three months and then two weeks into their trip north they have run out of food and they’re eating the pony. Did they get enough supplies for two weeks for two people when they’re going on a one to three month journey that’s going to be two people there three people back? Like
Mary:
oh they did say they were hoping to fish, but that’s a big gap to fill in
Elizabeth:
and then after they get there, he’s like, don’t worry, I’ll sit around and wait for three weeks, and I’m like, yeah, with what food? You already ate the ponies a week ago. Like, I don’t understand. And then they’re just like hand wave, no problem, we did fish and hunt and forage on the way back and we’re fine. I’m just like, no. no. Either don’t make food an issue at all either direction or have them actually plan, or have the poor north wind fucking starve to death because they planned so badly. Like, this wishy-washy, maybe they packed, maybe they didn’t, maybe they’re starving, maybe it’s easy to hunt, just- That’s a pet peeve of mine, but I was like oh, don’t- don’t taint the the rescue portion of your book when that’s a completely unnecessary plot hole. Like, either make the journey hard in a realistic way or go ahead and hand wave it. Don’t like try to make it hard and then hand wave it in the other direction. I don’t-
Mary:
Yeah
Elizabeth:
That’s a pet peeve, for sure
Mary:
Very valid.
Elizabeth:
Um, stylistically, I did also want to note I love that the part one of the book is in first person past tense–she’s telling a story that’s already happened from her perspective–and part two transitions to present tense because she has told the story up till now to what ends up being the north wind, and now she is done telling what already happened and she’s experiencing the rest of the book. I thought that was uh I- I appreciated that stylistically; I thought that was handled well and that it was a nice separation between part one and part two to kind of transition. I told you my story, now will you help me guide guide me as I continue my story to the end. So that was- I liked that bit.
Mary:
I actually didn’t notice that. That’s a pretty cool detail. Yeah.
Elizabeth:
Also, uh, stylistically, I just did appreciate that Joanna Ruth Meyer went ahead and did make the book first person because you’ll hear a lot of times as a writer or aspiring writer um don’t write first person blah blah blah third person’s better you know you can tell first person experiences but you should write in third person–at least I heard that a lot and I tend to write in first person (I admit it) and uh to just see you know this is an example that I think I can’t see anyone reading this book and being like ‘but it would have been better if it wasn’t in first person’ and and I think part of it is Echo’s telling her story we find out in part two and that’s like a good excuse for it, but even without that excuse why not let your character tell their story instead of you telling their story in third person? Like, you can do whatever stylistic choice you want as long as it works for your story and for your writing style; don’t let like arbitrary rules of writing or rules of writing for your genre tell you what you’re allowed to do. You don’t have to say ‘once upon a time there was a woman named Echo Alkaev’; you can say ‘hi, I’m Echo. Let’s go. This is my story.’ Anyway. I did like that. I liked stylistically the first person and how she changed it.
Mary:
Yeah. She did well. Um, I guess, really my only other thing is I got a very Raven and the Reindeer vibe in their trip north
Elizabeth:
yeah, I feel like maybe that’s one of the reasons why I was a little dis- I was disappointed in-
Mary:
because we just read that, it seems so much better done for the cold journey.
Elizabeth:
Exactly. Raven and the Reindeer handled that journey to the far north so much better, and was- that- that it makes this one stand out by- in contrast.
Mary:
Yeah
Elizabeth:
It felt me a little bit like all of the- a lot more energy and time and thought was put into part one of the book, and part two of the book felt a little bit rushed, like it was just brushing past things that would have been significant and explored in part one. um, so, I think for me, that’s my main criticism: it starts really strong–and I mentioned this in my review, too–starts really strong in part one and then part two feels like it could have been better and it ends on a weaker note than I would have liked, but overall an enjoyable book and I did enjoy that combination of the fairy tales– it was very satisfying. um, what about you? What’s your kind of overall takeaway from Echo North?
Mary:
I thought it was a beautifully merged uh story, merging these three tales, and definitely worth a read. But, yeah, the first part definitely was the strongest, and almost an afterthought, an unexpected surprise after thought for me, but, overall an enjoyable tale.
Elizabeth:
Yeah. Um, I do want to say, I- kind of like as an end thought: if you’re interested in other retellings of some tales that are a little bit less common that Echo North does draw on very well, “Tam Lin,” “East of the Sun, West of the Moon,” there are some really great novelizations of those stories, but they- they are less common, so let us know if you have any you’ve run into. I already mentioned Alice Hoffman’s Ice Queen is a really good take on “East of the Sun, West of the Moon,” there’s a book that’s literally just called Tam Lin um oh my gosh and the author just flew out of my head
Mary:
Was it Pamela Dean?
Elizabeth:
Yes! Pamela Dean’s Tam Lin is a book that I have read probably seven times. I just kept checking it out from the Orem Public Library when I was a kid and reading it over and over. Um, should make no surprise that I grew up to want to be an English major and studied English Lit in college because I kept reading that Tam Lin novel that takes place in the English department of this liberal arts college and I was like ‘I want that life, even without the fae, that would be great’. um, but that’s a great take on “Tam Lin” and you know there’s there’s so many cool less common fairy tales out there it was really nice to see something that might draw you in with that “Beauty and the Beast” familiarity, but then lead you to explore something like the ballad of “Tam Lin” and “East of the Sun, West of the Moon” and get some of the less pop culture fairy tales into your life a little more. um. What about you, Mary? Have you encountered any other “Tam Lin” or “East of the Sun, West of the Moon” or “Beauty and the Beast” retellings that really stand out? Not to just put you on the spot.
Mary:
Yeah. I definitely haven’t read any “Tam Lin” or “East of the Sun, West of the Moon.” I’m definitely going to be seeking them out after this, though.
Elizabeth:
Read the Pamela Dean Tam Lin; it’s so good.
Mary:
I bought the ebook already with some credits
Elizabeth:
Yes!
Mary:
so it’s on my list this year
Elizabeth:
You’ll have to let me know what you think because again I checked that book out from the Orem Public Library so many times; it was my go-to ‘I can’t find something else that appeals to me so I’m just going to check out Tam Lin again.’ Yep. Um, but that’s- I think that sums up my thoughts. I was pleasantly surprised to find out Joanna Ruth Meyer is a kind of Arizona/Phoenix area native, so she is somewhere in- in my vicinity–um, we’re kind of like neighbors. Um, and so that was a fun connect- so, I was trying to figure out: this is the only book on our lineup for book club books for this year that is already available in my public library system, which is shocking; I’m going to have to request the others get added because why aren’t they there. I’m probably going to end up buying them, but still. but now I understand why–it’s because it’s a local author. so Tempe/Phoenix public library system, do better, but also thanks for supporting local authors. we love libraries. um, and I would never really be mad at a library; I would just vote that they get more funding because they need it. they deserve it. anyway.
Mary:
So, do please come join us on Facebook or on our Discord group. Happy to discuss both either Echo North and our future titles or anything fairy tale related.
Elizabeth:
yeah. We’re always happy to hear from you and have any kind of book discussion or fairy tale discussion you would like to have with us, and, uh, we will see you in oh June, right?
Mary:
Yes. June.
Elizabeth:
we’ll see you in June for next quarter’s book pick, um, which I had pulled up and then immediately lost. Do you remember what we’re reading for June?
Mary:
I want to say- I think it’s Six Crimson Cranes? Yes. By Elizabeth Lim.
Elizabeth:
So tune in for that. join us. we should be doing our usual intro post about the book probably going up more in May and then our reviews will be up the first week of June and we’ll be doing our discussion that month, too, so join in um and let us know: what did you think? have you read Echo North? and are there any fairy tales that are a little bit more obscure that you’d like to see more retellings of? because I love seeing a good “Tam Lin”, so– let us know and until next time this has been Elizabeth and Mary, and we will, you know, keep reading.