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Mary & Elizabeth Discuss the Book
Discussion Transcript
Welcome to The Enchanted Garden, our fairy-tale book club. Today, we are discussing the House of Salt and Sorrows, which is a retelling of “12 Dancing Princesses.” And I’m Mary, and this is Liz.
Elizabeth:
Hello!
Mary:
Alright, let’s go ahead and get started with our questions. So:
In what ways is the retelling similar to the original fairy tale?
Uh, in this case, I remember when the book finally started being like oh there- there’s not 12 alive dancing princesses, what’s this going to be? But actually overall I think there’s a lot of really great similarity. Uh, they do have a magical dance that they go through some sort of magical door or portal to get to; they dance their shoes out every–not every night a different pair, but they are wearing through their shoes a lot more quickly than they should; they uh have a little bit of the element of ‘oh, we should reward people for figuring out why they’re dancing their shoes out,’ but that’s just a one-time kind of really bad drunk dinner experience, so, similar and different in the same place there; and the the person who figures out what’s really going on is a romantic opposite for one of the princesses and ends up in marriage, so there’s kind of a similarity there. Um- and there are 12 sisters. That’s a pretty big deal. Of a noble house: the Thaumas dozen. It’s very fitting for that. Um, am I missing anything from the original tale that you think is like pretty well correlated, Mary?
Mary:
So, those are the main points. Um, there were just a couple other little details that I thought were interesting that didn’t match up exactly the same way, but were elements in there. Our hero who figures it out it does essentially go invisible at one point in time.
Elizabeth:
That’s true
Mary:
Even though there’s not an invisible cloak. And there is drugged wine, it’s just not for the hero; it’s for one of our girls. And I think one of the scenes that best fit the tale was that very first time that they go to their first, you know, magical ball because it does have the metallic trees and boats taking them across one at a time to the- to the palace.
Elizabeth:
That’s true. That first ball
Mary:
That very first one really matched up
Elizabeth:
really matches up and you can tell that Erin Craig was strongly inspired by the original tale when she was writing that first ball scene.
Mary:
Yeah
Elizabeth:
Uh, the mask–the dancers that they can’t tell necessarily exactly who they are–they’re all acting a little bit almost like they’re under a spell of some kind, uh, and the metallic trees, the- the boats, very much match up. Um, and I- I think those are the broadest similarities, uh, and everything I’m thinking to say now kind of plays into the second question more than the first one.
Mary:
We’ll- We’ll go right into that, then. So:
How are the two stories different?
In my mind, I think, uh, the first thing, like I said, that stands out right from the very first page of the book is that you find out not all 12 of these sisters are alive; there’s only eight left when the book begins, and then even more of them die over the course of the book, and it is very much a sense that instead of the princess’s suitors being doomed to death because of the decision of punishing them if they don’t figure out what’s going on with the shoes, the princesses themselves or you know these noble sisters are the ones that are doomed to death for whatever reason that turns out to be associated with their dancing in a pretty roundabout way.
Mary:
Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was another interesting twist as well. It still has that element and that risk, but it’s not for the same people.
Elizabeth:
Yeah. Uh, I- I really enjoyed that it managed to feel very much like a 12 dancing princess’s book and have the 12 sisters while still not needing all 12 of those sisters to be present and accounted for, and that that ‘Thaumas dozen’ theme was important for the family and for the story even though they’re not there, uh, in that so many of them have already died before we enter the scene. Um, and it kept that sense of peril, and I think actually heightened it in a good way. Like, I think the sisters and the princesses are a much more sympathetic character, uh, in this tale than the men that are like ‘oh, I just want a rich lady reward, thank you, please.’
Mary:
Yeah
Elizabeth:
Um, like it’s hard to care too much if a volunteer to a deadly situation dies as opposed to someone, especially I appreciated that the princess’s ages were very much realistic
Mary:
Mhm
Elizabeth:
like there are you know some–there’s the triplets and you know that you have to do things so that it’s not too broad of an age spectrum, but there are some very young princess figures, sisters to worry about, but then there’s the older ones who are more properly adults, who are genuinely ready to be doing and engaging in more adult phases of their lives, except that this curse in a way is holding them back or just killing them. I did also appreciate that it wasn’t a strictly older, oldest to youngest. Like, it kind of started out that way a little bit, but you never knew which sister was in danger. Um
Mary:
That’s true. I also like that not all the sisters, you know, went to–even the remaining ones–went to the ball every night.
Elizabeth:
Yes. And it was a lot more realistic. It was very well done that there’s a realistic reason that their shoes would be wearing out much more quickly than anticipated, that it would actually be noticed because they’re those expensive shoes that were meant to last them for ages
Mary:
An entire dancing season! And they only last like a week.
Elizabeth:
Yeah. And so, to me, that- that preserves that important element of the worn out shoes, but twists it to make it a lot more grounded in a kind of realistic setting in a way. Um, I did also think a big difference is that there is the suitor figure in Fisher who’s along from the get-go for these.
Mary:
Yeah. That’s true.
Elizabeth:
Uh, the princesses are not going, you know, the sisters aren’t going alone through this portal to these balls. They don’t all choose to go to every ball every night. And often there’s Fisher going with them, and Fisher’s the one who actually showed them–like that Fisher character, uh, is a difference for sure between the two stories.
Mary:
Yeah, she introduced a love triangle there, as well.
Elizabeth:
Yeah. There was the element of Fisher and Cassius and Annaleigh kind of coexisting, and-
Mary:
Well, I guess that’s- it’s just a big difference in and of itself, is that there’s an actual romance; it’s not just nameless suitor solving the thing, and then I will marry someone that I have just met.
Elizabeth:
Yeah. And any implication that Cassius–or Fisher, for that matter–might be interested in Annaleigh just because she’s a Thaumas heiress, um, the idea of them being interested just in the wealth of the family is brought up as a concern Annaleigh has, but then you know dismissed. So, it’s realistically dealt with that that would be a worry: ‘Oh, man. Are they just gold diggers?’ Like in the original tale genuinely the hero is, but then also, no they’re- they’re not gold diggers. One of them isn’t even really a person, but that’s a different matter. Um, I did appreciate, too, I think a big basic difference of the story is that it is told from the perspective of one of the women instead of being told from the perspective of the hero who has come to solve the puzzle. Uh, if it was a more traditional, strict retelling of The 12 Dancing Princesses, it would have been from Cassius’s perspective entirely.
Mary:
That’s true. The purpose of the story isn’t to, as the reader, to solve the mystery of the shoes. It is the mystery of the deaths.
Elizabeth:
Yeah. Um, and it is a fairy-tale-esque element, but technically the addition of a stepmother here is a difference in the story, too. Um, that they have a brother on the way from a stepmother and the kind of element the stepmother adds to the tale: very fairy-tale to have a kind of wicked stepmother figure, um, even though it’s not- she seems more like a irritating stepmother at times, she does end up being very much the evil stepmother responsible for all the problems, ultimately.
Mary:
Yeah.
Elizabeth:
Uh, so Morella’s character is a nice addition that still rings as fairy tale, but isn’t The Twelve Dancing Princesses inspired directly.
Mary:
Mhm. Another big thing for me was just the addition of the overall tone of the book because it had those, that gothic haunting elements
Elizabeth:
Mm, oh my god
Mary:
That you definitely don’t get in
Elizabeth:
Yeah
Mary:
they can’t handle in the original tale that just
Elizabeth:
Yeah
Mary:
It was done so well
Elizabeth:
Oh, yeah. The- The original tale, sure the- it, in certain tellings of it, it’s that the 12 dancing princesses are literally cursed to do this, uh, but in other versions they’re just kind of enjoying some illicit freedom, uh, and this is a really great combination of both of those things, but that adds that very gothic and very ghost story feel. Like, uh, I liked, too, the inclusion of the kind of mythos of this setting with the gods and the dei- other deities, um, helped, you know, really build up the setting and distinguish it, but did also kind of feel familiar in a way. Uh, it reminded me a little bit of Greek mythology or Roman mythology, but it isn’t–it’s its own distinct thing. Um, and I very much appreciated that fairy-tale feel of oh there’s magic yeah, but not the average person interacts with magic every day. Magic is something more like a miracle from a god that is rare, but on the other hand we know gods are real, sometimes they come to our dances. Like, it’s a really great balance. Um, and I definitely enjoyed that and I know it doesn’t have anything to do with the first two questions, but just in terms of atmosphere, I think that that was a really great way to flesh out the setting for a fairy tale like this.
Mary:
I agree. Okay, so:
Did the retelling retain enough of the original to be satisfying? Why or why not?
Elizabeth:
Yeah. Uh, I definitely felt satisfied. I felt like there were enough 12 Dancing Princesses elements and each time there was a new one like you said with that first ball having that kind of imagery that matches up I was like aha there it is okay uh and overall I was I would still call it a 12 Dancing Princesses retelling rather than just kind of a loosely inspired by uh it does feel like it’s a retelling of the 12 princesses tale
Mary:
Yeah it definitely hit all the- the main symbolism and elements of the worn out shoes, the number of the girls, solving the mystery
Elizabeth:
And there is that element of potential a spell or a curse with peril and a reward for figuring out what’s going on, even though in this case the reward is more that people stop dying and get to survive this than it is a super happy wedding. Although there is one of those in the end, like, the romance plays out and comes together. Uh, yay, Cassius and Annaleigh get to get together. I know I was pleased. Uh, but it’s–you know–it’s matches up in a way that I would say is satisfying.
Mary:
So:
What gaps did the retelling fill in that were missing in the original?
That’s a good question. Uh, I think putting it from the princesses’ perspective or the you put it from the perspective of one of the sisters helps already to flush out gaps because a big element that’s missing in the original 12 Dancing Princess’s tale is, oh, why? Why are you going underground to dance? Uh, When did this start?
Mary:
Yeah, how did you find out about these? Why are you doing it? Exactly.
Elizabeth:
How did this happen?
Mary:
The how and the why of the balls
Elizabeth:
And you’re so invested in continuing to do it that you’re just drugging dudes who are gonna die because you drugged them and you’re okay with that, but also where are you getting the drugged wine? Like, there’s a lot of questions that all center around I guess women being mysterious in the original fairy tale, but this is from the perspective of one of the women involved, and that already shows us kind of behind the scenes, ‘oh, this is what’s going on with the family.’ While still retaining that mystery to solve, it’s a mystery that even the women who are the dancing princesses need to solve.
Mary:
Yeah.
Elizabeth:
Um, I very much appreciated that. Uh, I loved the very uncomfortable drunk dinner where their dad gets totally smashed and incredibly angry and inappropriate, and brings up the problem of them wearing out their shoes, and starts proposing to offer his daughters as rewards for solving that problem and that mystery, uh, because I think that actually both fills in a gap and does better than the original that element where that–dick move, dad. Very much a dick move.
Mary:
Yeah, it felt very real and characterized in the moment
Elizabeth:
Yeah. It did. And it felt like the reactions of all of the people in the room were very fitting. There were the guests that were like ‘this is awkward, but ha ha he’s in charge, he he,’ there were the horrified sisters who reacted in various ways, there’s the stepmother who doesn’t know how to handle it and is unhappy, there’s the dad who’s dealing with too much, like there’s a great array of realistic responses that is missing from the original tale. Uh, and it, so, it’s a great way to be like a nod to the original tale, but says ‘what if these were real people acting realistically in a way that is understandable for their characters and indicates that they do have depth of character?’ So, I really liked that scene in particular.
Mary:
Um, one thing I thought was interesting because I just re-read the original Grimm tale this morning and it ends with just such a random line: “The princes had as many days added to their curse as they had spent nights dancing with the 12 princesses.” When were the princes cursed? Where was any of this elements? How long had they been dancing? Okay. That just seemed so out of the blue!
Elizabeth:
It’s very very out of the blue, yeah. It’s-
Mary:
So, that we just kind of got rid of
Elizabeth:
Yeah, ‘let’s just not dwell on that,’ was a nice decision that, I think um because yeah that’s something I think every retelling of The 12 Dancing Princesses I’ve ever read and I’ve or watched (and I’ve read and watched a lot of them because that was my thesis was The Danced-Out Shoes fairy tale and retellings of it) every single one, the focus of the retelling was ‘but what actually is going on with these girls?’ because it doesn’t it get explained all in the original tale. It’s a massive gap in the story. And the different ways they explain it make a huge difference in the tone. So, I really loved that in this one she fleshed out that gap. Craig was like, okay, here’s the answer: this is how they’re going somewhere, this is the dancing they’re doing. But then that wasn’t the whole mystery. She- She had that whole horror element of, you know: Are there ghosts? Are these dances even real? Who’s gonna die next? Are they getting murdered or is it coincidence? And I loved all of that. I honestly loved the whole book, so that’s not a surprise. But I think that it played out really really well that you could feel like I completely understand the dance portion of the tale and you still have all of this really rich mystery that ends up being around you know the trickster god and the Weeping Woman and this agreement with a figure that is kind of a deal with a devil thing that Morella made that has cursed the whole family in payment. Um, I feel like it was very fitting, very fairy-tale, but also a very unique way to flesh out that gap. Uh, and I loved that it removed the responsibility for what was happening from the kind of cursed figures. You know, it’s- it’s Morella’s fault, it’s kind of the dad’s fault like a little bit, but mostly Morella. It’s not the sisters who are the ones directly suffering the worst who are responsible for that; all they’re responsible is for how they’ve tried to deal with what they’ve been faced with, and I think one of the most difficult parts to read but also one of the most satisfying kind of payoffs was that climax where Annaleigh does not know what’s real. She’s doubting literally everything and that’s- that was so hard to read and so beautifully well written and well done. Um, and I think that’s the whole element like thematically for the story is: We will have this trickster god that’s tricking you into dying or putting yourself in danger or any number of other things and making you doubt reality and it made us as readers doubt reality, and I know there was a moment where I was like ‘oh, oh, what’s real? what isn’t? Is Cassius real? Is Cas- is what-?’
Mary:
He wasn’t really at the ball, so is he real now?
Elizabeth:
Yeah
Mary:
And, yeah, it was very powerful.
Elizabeth:
Yeah.
Mary:
And you definitely had the ‘I want to believe this, but now they’re making me wonder.’ Ooh.
Elizabeth:
Yeah.
Mary:
So well done. So, Liz, did we have:
Any additional thoughts about the book?
Uh, I think I do just want to reiterate, uh, I love the way that the setting of this book like contributes to the story and is an integral part of the story, but Erin Craig never takes a break from telling the story to just describe the setting to us. She’s really, really masterful at working in these beautiful lush descriptions that make you feel like you’re there on the isles in Highmore smelling the salt, understanding the kind of rituals and the traditions and the holidays, but she’s not like ‘and in this country that I made up that is the kingdom of this, this is what we do.’ Like, I think even good books often fall into that just I’m gonna narrate a bunch of stuff exposition
Mary:
Yeah
Elizabeth:
and I loved that she avoided that, but that I feel like I understand this setting and I love this setting uh even though she didn’t need to do any of that. Like, she doesn’t need to have a map at the beginning of the book and five appendices explaining all of the terms and places–and I like high fantasy, and I’ve enjoyed series that need that–but I really loved that it felt just as rich of a world and lore without any of that. I thought that that was masterful storytelling on Erin Craig’s part.
Mary:
Yeah, it was so immersive and you felt like that there was just this bigger world out there, we’re not just this little tiny island in a void. And you can definitely see more stories happening in other parts of the world with the other gods and regions, and it was just so beautiful.
Elizabeth:
I mean, you could even see– I think a mark of a really well done story is where you really care about the protagonist who is the perspective of the story, but everyone else feels equally real, and I feel like this same story told from any of the other sisters’ perspectives, told from the father’s perspective, told from Cassius’s perspective, told from Morella’s perspective starting where- with her making the deal and her starting to feel like maybe she regrets that deal and messed up and dealing with that, like any of these characters felt real and relatable enough that they could have been the protagonist even if they were ultimately the villain or a victim of their own poor decisions or died super early or- You know, like, there’s- there’s a lot of different ways it could have played out. I think Annaleigh was a great choice for the perspective and the protagonist, but I loved that it felt like you know I would love to hear Morella’s story; I would love to hear the–even just the romance between Eulalie and, is it Edgar? Uh
Mary:
Yeah, I think so. The clockmaker
Elizabeth:
Even just that romance and their elopement and his like from his perspective it would have been amazing. Um, so I enjoyed that I was kind of invited to think about all those additional stories and I was given enough pieces of them to be interested in it, but I wasn’t thrown all over the place. Like, it wasn’t: okay, I can’t figure out how to tell you this information without flinging you into five different heads. And again, I’ve read great books that do that, but this is a great single story from a single perspective that just really tells that story in a way that lets you know there are other stories here and they’re great and they interacted with this story in these key places. Uh, so that was just really enjoyable for me. I think it’s probably why I’m gonna end up rereading the book, um, and I’m glad I own it for that reason because I- I love the feel of it. You know, it’s like you can’t just read Wuthering Heights or The Turn of the Screw or Haunting of Hill House once and be like that’s it, I got the story, I’m done. You aren’t just reading it for the plot points, so you want to re-read it to experience it again.
Mary:
Especially knowing the twists going back, looking for those clues that you know were there.
Elizabeth:
Watching for oh wait that was an indication that that’s not really Fisher. Oh, Fisher’s already been dead this whole time. Like, we never got to meet real Fisher? That was- I was- I was very sad.
Mary:
That’s a little heartbreaking there, yeah.
Elizabeth:
Yeah.
Mary:
It’s like before that you wondered kind of like should we be trusting Fisher, but you didn’t think-
Elizabeth:
and then it turned from that too, oh, it hasn’t been Fisher this whole time
Mary:
Mhm
Elizabeth:
and I- I loved that you know Craig did not pull any punches here. She was just like: You know what? We’re gonna start with a funeral. There’s gonna be more funerals on the way. There will be funerals in the past, funerals in the present, funerals in the f- it’s a lot of sad.
Mary:
yes, they set up that expectation right from the get-go, yep
Elizabeth:
And she managed, I think, to make me care enough about the individual–even the already dead sisters had personalities, had- had different elements that made me care about them, and made me help empathize with the the grief that the Thaumas family was feeling, in a way that was really great.
Mary:
Which is amazing to do with such a big cast of characters.
Elizabeth:
I know!
Mary:
There were 12 sisters and yet they all felt so unique.
Elizabeth:
Yeah
Mary:
Yeah.
Elizabeth:
I- That was admirable. Like, just keeping all of those individual and not making it feel like a chore to track all of the different characters when you have such a large cast of characters that’s necessitated by the story you’re retelling is very impressive. Um, did you have any other additional thoughts about House of Salt and Sorrows?
Mary:
I had just a few little things. Um, with Annaleigh, one of the moments that I really like connected with her and went ‘yes, girl!’ I think it was before the first ball–the the real one that they had–and, yeah, I think it was Camille said yeah something about oh you’ll have so many lines of suitors you know waiting to get, and she’s like, “Lines of suitors? I couldn’t imagine a more mortifying scenario.” I was like, she doesn’t want this life! And the fact that she wanted–her big dream as a child was to be the keeper of the lighthouse, and that she gets to do that in the end.
Elizabeth:
Yeah
Mary:
I just thought that was so beautiful at the end.
Elizabeth:
That was really great, and I loved that the whole time there was, you know– I love that Annaleigh was neither the oldest nor the youngest sister
Mary:
Yeah
Elizabeth:
Um, not just because I’m neither the oldest nor the youngest sister, although I’m sure you empathize with that
Mary:
Mhm
Elizabeth:
Um, but also because it left room for this situation where, yes, she’s the one solving the mystery and saving the family in a way, but also her older sister is wrapped up in these concerns of ‘I’m suddenly the heir and I don’t know how to deal with this, and I can’t even get married because our family’s cursed, and what am I supposed to be doing?’ And I love that she just kind of comes into her own and says, wait, no, this is something I can deal with when it’s all out there and they have this extra tragedy and she’s like you know what I’m going to take charge and I’m going to rebuild Highmore. It’ll be me. I’ve got that. Like, I felt like she had a great story arc and that that would have been lost if one character was trying to be the romantic interest, the protagonist, solve the mystery, be the heiress of Highmore, also want to be a lighthouse keeper, oh- You know, like, it’s too much, but give someone else the role of the oldest sister that’s going to inherit and suddenly that sister gets a much more interesting story, but we’re a lot less cluttered in the story that’s being focused on. So, I appreciated that.
Mary:
So, yeah. In conclusion, I think we both really loved this book and felt that it really represented “The 12 Dancing Princesses” well, and I hope you’ll come join us on our Facebook group to discuss it further and
Elizabeth:
Yeah. Let us know. This might be- It’s one of, if not the, favorite book that we’ve done on The Enchanted Garden Fairy-Tale Book Club so far, for me.
Mary:
Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Definitely up there.
Elizabeth:
So, I am curious to see what everyone else thinks, and I’m also pretty excited: I already went out and bought Erin Craig’s second book, Small Favors, so I’m excited to read that, and I’ll probably have to throw a review for it up on my blog, but, um, I’m excited to keep reading fairy-tale books and finding great gems like this. This was an awesome, completely off my radar find, so. Thank you for the suggestion, Mary, and I’m excited to keep doing this. We’ll see you on the book club group slash in December for our last pick of 2021.
Mary:
Yes
Elizabeth:
It’s sneaking up on us. Alright. Bye!
Mary:
Bye!